Modesty, from a young man's perspective

I just found this blog post the other day and I thought I would share it with my readers as I have recently been speaking about modesty here on Just Our Thoughts.

Giving Ear To Him: Don't Be A Snare


Striving to learn and live God's purposes,

Modesty - Responding to the Comments

At this time I would like to take the time to respond to the comments that have been left for me on my Modesty post.

Anonymous said:

There are certainly outfits out there that make my eyes spread wide, my jaw drop and make me think "seriously!" It might be nice if at times individuals would put more consideration into what they wear but are we really going to church to judge a book by its cover, isn't there more important things to focus on? If a homeless man came into your church with tattered clothing and terrible hygiene would you welcome him or sit and think to yourself that is inappropriate. Would you be disgusted at the fact that he was setting a bad example for your children by not bathing and not providing a better life for himself. I think it would certainly be nice if people put a little.more thought into their attire, but aren't you just happy to see them. Why would we not trust in our abilities to teach our children what we believe to be inappropriate and appropriate. I think the more important thing would be to teach the message that when we truly have God in our hearts we should want to live to the glory of God and that we might want to consider doing so in every aspect of our lives including appearance and let each decide that for themselves.

Are we going to church to judge a book by its cover?  Nope, that's not what I'm talking about.  Is there more important things to focus on?  Maybe.  What about the homeless man?  HE'S HOMELESS!!!!!  I wouldn't expect anything else.  I'm talking about expecting MORE of the youth (and ourselves); I'm talking about the EXAMPLE these Christian girls are being or not being to the non-Christian people that may visit our church and those they are in contact with in their schools!  I'm talking about holding ourselves as Christians to a higher standard than the world.  If these girls are in church on a regular basis, claiming to be Christians, coming from Christian homes they need to be in but not of the world.  They need to be above reproach.

Dear Anonymous, your last statement is what I'm talking about!  We need to teach the specifics of "this attire is not appropriate" by God's standards.  Let each decide for themselves, yes, but with instruction!  How can they know if we don't teach them a DIFFERENT message than the world is giving them?

Mrs. Ann said:

I myself am a full-time covering Christian. I wear ankle length jumpers and the style of Muslim hijab known as an al-amira, which is sort of like a tube head scarf that covers your whole head, leaving only the face visible. I attend a great church, however, every Sunday, I see the pastor's wife and daughters sitting in the first row in jeans that emphasize their bottoms, short skirts or shorts (not short shorts, just shorts), tops that show their bras (as in you can see them through the top) or the bra straps. I see other people wearing what I consider to be inappropriate clothing as well. However, I feel that it is the individual's calling as to whether they will dress like me (I am the only one who covers in my church) or otherwise. I do not make any comments on anyone's dress (ok, I comment on it to my husband). I have hopes that God will show them through me and my style of dress that which is more appropriate wear. I searched long (we are talking 10 plus years) for a church that I truly felt at home in, so I don't allow the dress code issue to bother me. They all completely accept me as I dress without looking at me like I am a "weirdo".

Thank you very much, Mrs. Ann, for your comments.  I agree with you that the dress issue is a minor issue.  I agree that we should be an example of proper dress.  The more I read and research I find that there are bigger issues to be dealt with in the church and community.  I need to come before God, examine my heart and my dress and be in a place that God would have me and my daughters be in our dress.

another anonymous commenter said:

For sure the girls need to be taught to dress properly as to honor God. But have you noticed that there are also married women in the church wearing mini skirts topped off with a tight cleavage showing shirt? That's what truly disgusts me. The way we dress directly influences men of all ages. I think there is nothing wrong with teaching modesty but I don't think it's our responsibility to approach other parents.  I know you'll do the best with your girls.

I totally agree with you.  There are married women (or older single women) in the church dressing improperly as well!  (Although I don’t find this to be an issue in my specific church.)  But I have a question, if we are not to approach other parents about our feelings in regards to their daughters’ (or sons) attire, who do we approach?  How do we instruct these women to dress more modestly?  Is it the role of the elders?  Thank you for your confidence in my parenting.  I do trust that I will do the best that I possibly can with God’s help.  I am thankful that I am learning about and addressing this issue of modesty NOW when my girls are young so that proper dress will be well established by the time they are more impressed by the world than they are now.

In further reading and study I used biblestudytools.com (and other websites) to go back to the Greek and read about what the words translated “modest apparel” really mean, and what that means for our time and place.  I found it interesting that what I learned was inline with what I was most comfortable wearing in public.  I am slowly discovering the standard that I am comfortable measuring against.

Striving to learn and live God's purposes,

Re-thinking - Taking Things TOO Literally

Just a few more thinks going on around here.

Be careful of taking things too literally.  Apply the principle of the matter to today.

Here are some quotes from a dear dear friend that kinda brought me back to reality just a little; she sounds so much like my husband.  I go to her for advice and perspective regularly because I know that she and J agree on many topics that I go flying off about!

"If I wore a swimsuit with cloth down to my wrist and ankles and said I was trying to obey the Bible I think I would cause people to run the other way."

"If I modestly fit in to my environment, but concentrate on Christian love and behavior, that's what gets noticed by others, that my behavior is different and that's what attracts them."

"Unsaved people at work love me, they know I don't judge them, they are comfortable with me and the Bible shows us that sinners were comfortable with Jesus."

"I'm not going to risk all that to make a point about clothing or some such unimportant thing.  It's kinda like the Scribes and Pharisees, straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.  I like to major on the majors and minor on the minors."

Modesty is a fairly minor issue.  It still needs to be taught and discussed.  There still needs to be a standard.  I don't know what that standard is and it very well may be different for each person, just like alcohol consumption and watching television is different for each person.  There are many other verses that direct us to love others where they are, to examine our own hearts.

There are verses that tell us that God looks on the heart while we look at one's appearance.  Maybe I'm guilty of looking at the appearance of those around me, and not at their hearts and where they are with God.  Yes, maybe they need to learn a little more about modesty and proper dress for our culture (to be in the world but not of the world, to not cause another to stumble, etc).

I come on very strong and very harsh, even when I'm just in the learning stages; it's my way of working through an issue, my way of figuring it out for myself.  I am to the point where I need to have a standard for my girls and for me; I will continue to study and learn and research until I find a standard J and I are comfortable with for our family.  I will share what I find, probably.  You will have to come to your own conclusions.

Oh, but I still plan to answer commenters from that previous post.  It's started, just not complete.


Striving to learn and live God's purposes,

Thinking On Scripture - Modesty

I am still thinking on and reading about and researching modesty.  I just wanted to share one tidbit I read today.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 (KJV) This will take you to Bible Study Tools where the Strongs Numbers are highlighted and you can click on them.  If you click on the word apparel you will see a definition and some explanation of that word in the Greek.  The word for apparel is Katastole.  The word translated modest is Kosmios.  So women are to dress in kosmios katastole.

What is kosmios katastole?  I found this information, although I have not read the entire article.

Modesty Defined

Actually, the English word modest appears only once in the King James Version of the Bible:

1 Timothy 2:9-10 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

The Greek word for apparel in this text is Katastole, meaning a long dress. Kata meaning down - a garment flowing down; and Stole - a long garment, covering or wrapping.

The Greek word for modest is Kosmios, meaning orderly, well-arranged, decent, modest, harmonious arrangement, or adornment. Modesty is also Biblically applied to one's demeanor or behavior. This same Greek word is translated good behavior in 1 Timothy 3:2 in the qualifications of bishops.

Therefore, sisters are instructed to wear modest long dresses (Kosmios Katastole). This Kosmios Katastole not only specifies that the article of clothing should be a dress, but also specifies that the dress should be of a suitably long length.

The definition of modesty involves both one's manner of dress and inward qualities. Biblical modesty starts within a person but is ultimately demonstrated by their outward appearance.

(source for above:  http://www.christadelphiansisters.org/modesty.htm)

At this point I am only providing information for my readers and for myself!  This search on modesty has taken me in a direction I was not expecting.  I am  unsure how to process all the information yet.  My biggest issue at the outset of this search was Christian teen girls wearing clothing that I considered too revealing.  The more and more I read the more I see that God has a BIG opinion about the way we dress!

Based on this Scripture, going back to the Greek and the information above (which is only one source), I am correct in saying that the clothing many of the girls are wearing is immodest!  For that matter, most of the clothing I am wearing is immodest!  It’s a lot to think about.

I am loving digging into God’s Word and really learning what He has to say.  Please, if you have any comments, opinions or suggestions, leave a comment or send me an email.  (My address can be found on my profile.)

Striving to learn and live God's purposes,

Modesty

I have the author’s permission to re-post the following thoughts here on my blog.  You can find the original post here.  (Warning:  BLOG TITLE is offensive and some of the other content is not acceptable for all viewers.  Enter at your own risk.  That’s part of the reason I decided to post it here, for my readers.)

 

This is an issue that is really starting to bother me.  In church this morning, there were a number girls who were not dressed properly, in my opinion.  Their skirts / dresses were too short; their tops showed off too much.  Their pants were too tight.  My young daughters look up to these teen and tween girls and want to follow their example.  I hate having to fight not only against society but also against the "norm" in our church.
I'm not saying I want our girls to look dowdy or ugly.  I want them to dress nicely, adequately covered without having their clothing tight fitting. There are nice modest clothing out there.  I find acceptable items for my girls are Wal-Mart and second hand stores all the time.

What is unacceptable in my opinion:

• spaghetti straps, but they are allowed at my discretion (provided the dress / shirt itself covers most of the chest and back.)
• short shorts
• skirts more than a couple inches above the knee
• low-cut tops
• backless or almost backless shirts
• low-rise (super low rise) pants
• tube-tops
• tops that show your bra or straps (such as in the case of spaghetti straps)  I qualify this one because I have a couple of bras that have straps that run very close to my neck; I'd have to almost wear a turtle neck or mock turtle neck shirt to cover them.
• tops or bottoms that are tight enough to show every curve, underwear lines, etc.

I have more than one reason for this rant today!  One I have daughters.  And two I have sons who will grow up and have to deal with this issue.  Thirdly, these girls in church that are wearing this inappropriate clothing are the daughters of leaders in our church.
My question to them is: What is your purpose in wearing such items?  Does it bring glory to God?  Does it attract the attention of the boys and the men?  Is that what we are supposed to be doing?

How do you approach this issue?  With the parents?  The youth leaders? The pastor and/or his wife?  The individual girl?

For me, I think to start I'm going to bring the issue up with our pastor's wife and see how she would suggest handling the situation.  I'm also going to ask her if she thinks I'm over reacting.  I could be.

What's considered modest in your home?  How do you (would you) handle the immodesty of others in your church / community group?

Until next time,
The Lovely Lioness

 

I shared the link of Facebook and got a couple of comments.  I wanted to continue writing my thoughts on the subject here.

It is great that they are in church, but once there I think we need to start teaching them these principles and traits.  I certainly don't want my daughters causing others to sin by what they wear.

And like the author said, we have to fight this in the world, why do we have to fight it in the church too?  Christians are not supposed to be of this world, so why are we dressing like the world???

No I'm not advocating "dresses only" or head coverings or such things, but at least lets be covered appropriately.  If the clothing worn is not appropriate "office wear" (Because even office workers have dress codes) then I don't think it should be worn to church.

Another commenter on Facebook (not on my “share” but on the “share” I got it from) said that the author made it sound like the girls were doing it on purpose, that the author made it sound as if she were labelling the girls as sluts.  The commenter said that this is not always the case.  It starts innocently – girls look for what is “in” to wear; they look to dress up for church.  And I agree, not all the girls that dress inappropriately are dressing to get the attention of the boys, but the attention comes whether they want it or not.  This doesn’t help the slippery slope.  They dress in a way they feel is attractive.  The boys give them attention.  So they continue to dress that way.  They get the attention from the boys and more.

I believe it is our jobs as parents, friends, and fellow Christians to teach them a better way to dress.  We need to (by our example and our words) teach them to dress appropriately, femininely, and modestly.  This topic is not covered adequately in my opinion.  Growing up I never understood how what I wore affected the boys around me.  I was just told, “Don’t do it” with no explanation.  I LOVED the attention and I was flattered that they wanted me, but I didn’t know how deep it went.  I didn’t know how much it affected some of them.  And I dressed more modestly than a lot of the teen girls I know.  My jeans were tight, but I never showed bra straps; my skirts were always to the knee or longer.

Since I’ve been married, I’ve educated myself on the topic.  In a desire to please and serve and dress for my husband and not for other men, I wanted to know more.  I wanted to know how men view women.  I read such books as Debi Pearl’s Created To Be His Help Meet and Shaunti Feldhahn’s For Women Only and Helen Andelin’s Fascinating Womanhood and Laura Schlessinger’s The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands (which I want to read again, soon).  On the specific topic of how men see / view women and how our clothing (or lack thereof) affect them, I found For Women Only to be the most helpful.

I am “stewing” over this topic and have been for a while now.  The post I read earlier and reposted above only added to that “stewing”.  Expect more posts to come on this topic.

Striving to learn and live God's purposes,